Do you think manual transmissions will ever become obsolete?

[Wallie05]

That is not true, though. Nowadays, there are automatic transmissions out there that boast better gas mileage than the same car with a manual transmission. You also have to take in the fact that people are not perfect and cannot drive "perfectly economical" with their manual transmissions, so stick shift owners do not necessarily end up with better gas mileage. Another thing to note is that Europe is not the way they used to be with manual....5-10 years ago, I'd agree with you, but now the Europeans are growing to like the automatic transmission, too. Lots of traffic now and automatic makes things easier. The BMW 7-series and Mercedes S-Class ONLY come with automatic transmission. The upper-model X5's (excluding the 3.0i) come standard with the auto, and the E-Class comes standard with automatic transmission as well (there is no available manual tranny available in Europe for the new E and CLK classes, I checked this out). There may be Audi A6's available in manual but only because they are probably the horribly-underpowered versions and need the manual to ring out all the power.

Nope. You're wrong on both counts. You didn't do a very good job of "checking this out." New E-classes and CLK-classes can be purchased in Europe with manuals, on almost all the diesels and on the smaller 6s and 4s. Proof: Go to Mercedes UK. Click on model range. Click on said models. Read description. See photo. And that's just the UK. If you want, check the sites of the other countries if you want to practice your language skills.

As for autos in Europe, true more are being sold, but the number I posted (10% or so--got this from an Edmunds page, but link is busted now) is accurate and not growing as fast as you think. Furthermore, most car companies (i.e. some of the biggest sellers: Citroen, Opel, etc. don't even offer autos on their most popular models). I travel to Europe frequently on business and leisure, and I can tell you, unequivocally, as most others who have visited: manuals still rule there. And based on the fact that many of manuals on are diesels, I would say its not that difficult to achieve high fuel economy in that set-up. Not to mention, the new diesels (Audis included) aren't all horribly-underpowered, as you say. In some cases, they are actually more powerful (usually torque-wise) and even faster than comparable gasoline engines.

I agree CVTs will continue to grow in the U.S. and also in Europe (but much more slowly). Many Europeans are still skeptical about autos as far as the benefits vs. price/convienence, and aslo, face it, manny's last a lot longer and can take much more of beating that autos; Europeans drive their cars pretty hard (they have to, their engines are so small) and on some rough roads (cobblestones, bricks, etc.) in their old squares; and also Europeans don't buy cars as often as we do. So their cars have to last longer. Furthermore, I'm a little skeptical about how fast the CVT equipped cars are for now...I don't think they're all that quick. As far as European traffic; its been terrible for decades and nothing's change much there.




Fuel stats on 2004 530i: 20/30 with manual transmission, 19/28 mpg with (SMG), 18/28 with automatic. Notice anything?

 

[Average Jae]

Wallie brought up a good point about other countries. US maybe a special case, but it's a damn huge market, so they can do whatever they want, and drivers can ask for what they want. the big question is are we talking about this in general (world) or in the states. because i believe in the states, manual tranny cars is a dying breed. even the enthuists are split btw true manual and the smg (the future, whether you like it or not.) and this is in a market segment that's less than 10% of the cars sold in the states.

in general euro drivers "know" how to drive better than American counterparts. mainly because it's way harder to attain a license over there, and also hard to get a car/ maintain it. and there's also the nice mass trans system in place, so there really isn't a need to give out licenses away, like here in the states. but i think europeans are a bit snobby about their cars, and are slower to change. i mean good ole germans didn't even put cup holders in the cars! until American car buying public blasted them w/ it. why? the manufacs asked, it's a car! same for A/C.. eventually they yielded and put those options in, and even *gasp* standardized them. same logic goes for the manuals. seems the ideal over there is the purity of the driving, not as comfort oriented like in the states.

i know for one, korea used to be mainly manuals, but as the economy got better, and more people started driving, they chose comfort over paying a little more in cost, and maintaing it. and most of the new cars there are autos. i hate to admit, but traffic sure is brutal on the left foot. seems the trend is the same way in other asian countries, if not europe also.

in the world sense, (if you want to bring that up.) fate of the manual would depend on the buying habit of china. it is a huge untapped market, and chances are most will opt for autos, rather than having to learn how to drive a manual. and could you imagine traffic in a country w/ a billion people? it'll be horrible. to boot, they are Chinese: meaning they are horrible drivers! (i could say that because i'm asian stalling left and right from missed shifts will make people go crazy! if i had to bet, autos will kill manuals over there too..

as for step tro- manual posing idiots. i remember a high school kid that showed up in brand new "pimped out" meaning limo tint all around, black 325i, which his parents bought for him, of course, was showing his car off. when i asked him if he had a manual, his reply: "no but i got the manual shifting thing, which is just as good" i wasn't sure if i wanted to explain to the kid or slap him upside the head, but in the end i just nodded and walked away. two or so months later, his other friend got an m3 w/ smg. all courtesy of his parents.. i sure miss my used 89buick from HS, and college.. (so much for a quick reply.. sorry guys)

 

[Default]

I agree, but they won't be obsolete. There's too much demand, which is why car companies are bringing BACK manuals!! Just becuase BMW's design team is full of ignorant idiots, doesn't mean every other company is. I think SMG style transmissions will replace automatics directly - auto trannies are inefficient and last 100,000 miles. Replacing a clutch on an SMG after 100,000 miles is 1/4 the price of replacing an automatic tranny after 100,000 miles.

Exactly, don't all of BMW's models come standard in manuals now except for the 7 Series? In any case, manuals will probably never die. Over half of Europe is on manuals, I wish it was that way here.

As for the SMG clutch lasting so long, I wouldn't be surprised since it makes perfect shifts. I bet you the clutch on an SMG would last even longer than 100K miles, unless you used launch control too much...

 

[Default]

as for step tro- manual posing idiots. i remember a high school kid that showed up in brand new "pimped out" meaning limo tint all around, black 325i, which his parents bought for him, of course, was showing his car off. when i asked him if he had a manual, his reply: "no but i got the manual shifting thing, which is just as good"

Yup, I know exactly what you're talking about. There used to be some asshat kid who went to my school and his parents bought him a used 1.8T A4 with an automatic. I was listening to him talking to his dumb friend about cars and why the "steptronic" was so much better than the manual transmission, their argument was "YEAHH MAN IT'S SO MUCH FASTER AND SO MUCH MORE RELIABLE, IN A MANUAL IF A BOLT GETS RUSTY OR SOME SHIT EVERYTHING FALLS APART!" I didn't even bother arguing with them and just walked away. I thought this kid was dead, but my friend went to a car meet last Friday and saw him there, A4 was completely riced out. My friend asked him, "Isn't that an automatic?" Right away he responded with "NO MAN IT'S A MANUMATIC!" as if it's something special. All that steptronic is, is a regular automatic with a gear selector. I've tried it before on several cars and it is absolutely horrible, lagging about 1-2 seconds between shifts.

Anyways, like I said before I strongly doubt that manuals will ever die in America or any other place. There's simply too much demand and they're still used widely in many types of vehicles, especially tractor trailers, whose transmissions would explode if they were automatic. If I ever have kids, they are definitely driving manuals. I don't even want to hear the word automatic come out of their mouth. Driving a manual actually requires you to pay attention to what's going on the road, unlike automatics where it's just like a trolley - stop and go, you almost fall asleep.

 

[jrt67ss350]

As for the SMG clutch lasting so long, I wouldn't be surprised since it makes perfect shifts. I bet you the clutch on an SMG would last even longer than 100K miles, unless you used launch control too much...

Shoot, the original clutch in my '87 lasted about 260,000 miles. If the SMG lasts even longer, then that's pretty amazing. I haven't driven an SMG, but I've heard that if you don't know what you are doing, you can really put a lot of wear on the clutch, especially on hills.

 

[MrElussive]

Nope. You're wrong on both counts. You didn't do a very good job of "checking this out." New E-classes and CLK-classes can be purchased in Europe with manuals, on almost all the diesels and on the smaller 6s and 4s. Proof: Go to Mercedes UK. Click on model range. Click on said models. Read description. See photo. And that's just the UK. If you want, check the sites of the other countries if you want to practice your language skills.

As for autos in Europe, true more are being sold, but the number I posted (10% or so--got this from an Edmunds page, but link is busted now) is accurate and not growing as fast as you think. Furthermore, most car companies (i.e. some of the biggest sellers: Citroen, Opel, etc. don't even offer autos on their most popular models). I travel to Europe frequently on business and leisure, and I can tell you, unequivocally, as most others who have visited: manuals still rule there. And based on the fact that many of manuals on are diesels, I would say its not that difficult to achieve high fuel economy in that set-up. Not to mention, the new diesels (Audis included) aren't all horribly-underpowered, as you say. In some cases, they are actually more powerful (usually torque-wise) and even faster than comparable gasoline engines.

I agree CVTs will continue to grow in the U.S. and also in Europe (but much more slowly). Many Europeans are still skeptical about autos as far as the benefits vs. price/convienence, and aslo, face it, manny's last a lot longer and can take much more of beating that autos; Europeans drive their cars pretty hard (they have to, their engines are so small) and on some rough roads (cobblestones, bricks, etc.) in their old squares; and also Europeans don't buy cars as often as we do. So their cars have to last longer. Furthermore, I'm a little skeptical about how fast the CVT equipped cars are for now...I don't think they're all that quick. As far as European traffic; its been terrible for decades and nothing's change much there.




Fuel stats on 2004 530i: 20/30 with manual transmission, 19/28 mpg with (SMG), 18/28 with automatic. Notice anything?

Nope, I don't agree. You're right about manual being available in the UK on the E and CLK classes. As for your trips to Europe, I don't agree. When I used to travel to Europe, I was always surrounded by automatic transmission Mercedes among other cars. What you don't understand is that automatic vs manual is no longer really a "preference". Automatic is considered a "luxury" so a lot of nice cars are expected to come standard with automatic transmission.

As for fuel economy, I stand by what I said. Maybe you could throw one random specification in somebody's face to convince them, but we are on a BMW car forum, and basically I know better. You should also know that most people opt for manual transmission for performance reasons, and fuel economy and performance definitely do not go together.

B6 Audi S4 fuel stats:
Manual: 15/21
Tiptronic: 18/24

You should also go checkout the mbusa.com web site and look at every MB car that is offered in both manual and automatic. You'll notice that the automatic always delivers similar or slightly better fuel economy. Another thing to checkout is BMW's web site, the X5 3.0i with the 6-speed manual and 5-speed automatic. The manual delivers 15/21 and the auto delivers 16/21.

As for turbo-diesel cars, it depends on the car. This whole "diesel can be fast" thing is very very new, and the car and the engine has to be setup to be fast (such as the new MB E320 CDI). But VW's TDI engine is designed to be quiet, smooth, and deliver great fuel economy. As a result, the TDI cars do 0-60 in like 12 seconds. Sure turbo-diesel cars have a lot of torque, but for fast acceleration, what they need is horsepower. When the auto manufacturers setup the turbo-diesel engine and the car to have fast acceleration, they DO sacrifice some fuel economy, but it's okay because turbo-diesel engines deliver mad good fuel economy anyways.

You should know that I agree and disagree with all of you on some parts and what I'm stating above does not necessarily state my opinion. I think it's just important to have the facts from both ends of the discussion.



Average Jae: one time I parked in this parking lot next to this guy who just got an RX-8 and he was standing outside. I told him "nice car" and we got to talking and I asked what transmission he had, and he replied "both". And I was like, "What??" He told me it has the tiptronic thing or whatever and that's just definitely NOT manual. He also went to checkout my car and he was staring at the interior and he asked what tranny I got and I said "manual" and he was like, "Oh you got the auto-shift thing also?" and I said, "No, manual transmission" and when I said this, he actually looked at me kind of confused, so I was like, "three pedals bro" and he was like, "ooooooooooooooh........I don't have the patience for stick"

 

[Section_8]

He also went to checkout my car and he was staring at the interior and he asked what tranny I got and I said "manual" and he was like, "Oh you got the auto-shift thing also?" and I said, "No, manual transmission" and when I said this, he actually looked at me kind of confused, so I was like, "three pedals bro" and he was like, "ooooooooooooooh........I don't have the patience for stick"

I'm a diehard manual, had it in all 6 cars I've owned. Manual will be around a long time, if nothing but for the diehard owners, that are fixing up 'old' cars 50-75 years in the future. (Heck there are still original production fords from the 1910's that can roll, as long as people like to collect things, there will be a manual car somewhere on the highway). The cost will go up I think for manuals, and that 10% that drive 'real' manuals will get lower and lower too.. This is all in regards to the US market - wallie's right we are lazy (to an extent) but the type of traffic we have is partly responsible, imho. Europe has it's 'spots' where there's nasty congestion as bad as anywhere, but that's anytown USA from 7-10 and 3-7, let alone consider any 'big' city that's literally a traffic jam all day long till the wee hours of the morning..

3 on the tree doesn't get produced any more, but I'm sure at the time of it's creation, it was the best thing since sliced bread..

 

[Average Jae]

Average Jae: one time I parked in this parking lot next to this guy who just got an RX-8 and he was standing outside. I told him "nice car" and we got to talking and I asked what transmission he had, and he replied "both". And I was like, "What??" He told me it has the tiptronic thing or whatever and that's just definitely NOT manual. He also went to checkout my car and he was staring at the interior and he asked what tranny I got and I said "manual" and he was like, "Oh you got the auto-shift thing also?" and I said, "No, manual transmission" and when I said this, he actually looked at me kind of confused, so I was like, "three pedals bro" and he was like, "ooooooooooooooh........I don't have the patience for stick"

i actually ran into the similar situation at my store parking lot. i told the guy w/ an rx-8, nice ride! only to see his reverse gear light up before going forward.. when he pulled out. i lost all respect. what a joke! you should've asked him where his 41 horses went?

 

[MrElussive]

i actually ran into the similar situation at my store parking lot. i told the guy w/ an rx-8, nice ride! only to see his reverse gear light up before going forward.. when he pulled out. i lost all respect. what a joke! you should've asked him where his 41 horses went?

Yeah, exactly. I was going to ask if he knew that he sacrificed 40hp by going with automatic but I didn't wanna be a hater. I drive manual and I like it, but most people do not feel this way.

Section_8 you're definitely right about the whole traffic thing. Whenever I use the SUV, the car feels more natural to drive with our traffic conditions and in the presence of other auto drivers.

 

[Section_8]

He also went to checkout my car and he was staring at the interior and he asked what tranny I got and I said "manual" and he was like, "Oh you got the auto-shift thing also?" and I said, "No, manual transmission" and when I said this, he actually looked at me kind of confused, so I was like, "three pedals bro" and he was like, "ooooooooooooooh........I don't have the patience for stick"

BTW that is the funniest thing I've heard/read all week! Do you mind if I quote you elsewhere with proper credit?

 

[bahnstormer]

smg is crap just so u all know
the new one on the m5 smg3 is ok,
but so far, vw's dsg has been getting
much better reviews from the critics..

 

[KevRC4130]

A year ago I would have said manuals would never become obsolete, but now that many super cars (Enzo, M5, SLR McLaren, etc) aren't even available with a proper manual, I'm going to have to vote Yes, they are going to be obsolete.

 

[Chesty Bonds]

A year ago I would have said manuals would never become obsolete, but now that many super cars (Enzo, M5, SLR McLaren, etc) aren't even available with a proper manual, I'm going to have to vote Yes, they are going to be obsolete.

What I can't understand is how these supercars aren't offered with a manual. It's the same with the E60 M5: BMW went from offering it as manual only to no manual at all!!!! WTF!

 

[MrElussive]

BTW that is the funniest thing I've heard/read all week! Do you mind if I quote you elsewhere with proper credit?

Quote away, no credit required either.

 

[Average Jae]

the way the market is, esp w/ the arms race that they are in, they'll do their best to get the highest hp number, and fastest 60, quarter times, etc. manufacs will have to put in SMG, DSG. or whatever their flavor. the machines will do it faster than human counter parts every time and correctly each time. not to mention they can add in extra gears, like how the SMG 3 boasts 7, to get the best performance out of the already beasting m motor. human counter part may hunt for the right gear the first few times out, but there will be a few that gets left out.

some drivers will have nostalgia factor associated w/ manuals, and may either look back on it w/ fondness, or try like crazy to keep it in the cars. after a while tho, it just may go the way of the carburetors. (extreme example) if new tech out performs old tech, it'll eventually replace it. i mean look at the trends, as much as lot of us hate the drive by wire tech, it'll replace cable throttles and such, if not so already in modern cars.

i don't think manuals will die out, i hope it doesn't die out. (there still are hand built cars out there right? for 6figures+) but the question at some point will become who's willing to pay extra for the manual tranny over the better performing SMG? (assuming that SMG and similar tech will become cheaper as they become mass produced. while demand for manuals start drop, thus becomes more expensive and harder to find.) my opinion is based on the assumption that the arms race will continue on for a forseeable future. and that SMG types catches fire. isn't it only logical to want the best performance out of a performance car tho?

i'm still a manual fan tho and i really do feel bad that mazda decided on what they did on the auto vs manual. because that car was a blast to drive, but even in the manual it felt like it needed more power. the horses in the rx-8 felt so much angrier than in mine, and it loved to rev all the way upto 9k.. i miss that test drive..

 

[Chesty Bonds]

the way the market is, esp w/ the arms race that they are in, they'll do their best to get the highest hp number, and fastest 60, quarter times, etc. manufacs will have to put in SMG, DSG. or whatever their flavor. the machines will do it faster than human counter parts every time and correctly each time. not to mention they can add in extra gears, like how the SMG 3 boasts 7, to get the best performance out of the already beasting m motor. human counter part may hunt for the right gear the first few times out, but there will be a few that gets left out.

I agree with what you're saying but why can't they offer the headline performance figures with the use of an SMG version of whatever car it is yet still offer a manual tranny for the real enthusiasts? This is what pisses me off so incredibly about the new M5 and CSL.

The other thing to remember, in my opinion, is that as the demand for the real manual is lessened, so too will its quality and scope of enginneering diminish. Manufacturers aren't going to put a lot of effort into a transmission that isn't really sold.

All the new cars suck.

 

[MrElussive]

What they need to do is make manual transmission more user-friendly. An example of this is the Porsche Cayenne with the V6 motor and manual transmission. It has a hill-start feature where if it's sitting on an uphill and you let go of the brake, it will still hold the car there so you can start from a stop as if you were on a flat surface (without use of the hand brake or anything like that). They need to take minor steps like these to make manual driving easier. Another step taken is the CDV that disengages the clutch at one exact speed, no matter how fast or slow you push the clutch pedal in. They do this to preserve clutch life, but it made user-friendliness WORSE. That is why in all new manual cars, you can watch your passenger move forward and backward every time you're shifting gears. So stupid !!!!!!!
Make my manual tranny smooth, the girls don't like riding in my car because of this !!!!!!! I am a solid manual driver but there is very little I can do to make the 1-2 shift smooth and gentle.

 

[Average Jae]

Chesty: (since i don't know your first name, Mr. Chester) i'm with you. my point was that eventually the manual lovers (i can't say real enthusiasts, because i think the term will change over time) will have to pay more to get the almost "out-dated" part. i'd say it'll similar to those audiophiles saying records has the true sound, so they stick to it. instead of CDs. not sure what they'd say about DVD-A but that's besides the point.

Emile, totally in tune with you too. yea, the hill stop feature is slick. when i first heard about it, i thought someone was mocking subarus, when they were raving about the subaru, having that feat. i dont' know too much about the CDV, but seems all the experienced manual drivers hate it. so i'm leaning towards getting it taken out too. (there's also the mention of: when dumping the clutch, it may acutally shorten the clutch life..)

manuals make driving fun, but it can also mean hell in traffic. if manuals really were the best thing since sliced bread, they wouldn't continually improve on it. and now automatics are supposedly getting better times and fuel milage, so lot of the key selling points of the manuals were equaled and passed by it. and still boasts the convenience factor. and i wonder if 50 years from now, anyone will care about the manuals. Ellica, as ugly as it maybe, could be the sign of things to come. no gears, half the weight being the battery, adding upto one smoking fast ride! and when flying cars come out..

 

[MrElussive]

Jason, the main criticism of the CDV is that, depending on the car (because different manufacturers have different settings), usually the sub-3K rpm shifts are terrible unsmooth. But if you'll notice, the 3K+ rpm shifts are actually very smooth. Just to be sure, everyone should do a 1-2 shift at around 4K rpm (yes 4K) and notice how smooth the dis-engagement is, compared to normal driving. The disengagement speed of the CDV is usually tuned for smooth 3K+ rpm disengagements, but this makes for very un-smooth sub-3K rpm disengagements.
The people who hate the CDV state that the CDV causes MORE wear than normal on launches and general clutch engagement, but I think this is just due to some bias on their part. If the CDV helps in one way and hurts in another, I don't think it would be employed at all.

We're all definitely over-thinking this, but it's clear that we all like manual and it'll be a cold day in hell before we switch over to automatic (or at least SMG), but the auto industry is starting to give us too many good reasons to do so.

 

[Chesty Bonds]

Chesty: (since i don't know your first name, Mr. Chester) i'm with you.

LOL how did you work out my surname?