Do you think manual transmissions will ever become obsolete?

Average Jae · Dec 14, 2004

Abdoman said:

great article [clap]

there are some good quotes in there. car jacker that couldn't steal a car and is serving 10 years in the slammer, because he couldn't drive a stick! he needs 5 more for stupidity! oh and you can't use the cell while driving a stick! so DON'T USE A CELL IN THE CAR!!

this is the glimpse of the future "f430 in the race mode will get you within 5 seconds of the professional ferrari driver!" what's more important? fun factor or the fastest time factor? tech sure makes joe blow drive like a man, don't you think?

///M SPEED · Dec 15, 2004

Chesty Bonds said:

BS! It take a lot of skill to drive an SMG equipped ///M at speed! Whether or not it's equipped with an SMG gearbox has nothing to do with the performance or lack there of driving one of these cars fast or just around town. SMG is a true manual whether you want to acknowledge it or not and it is just your opinion (I agree I love to shift the gears) that it does not take skill to drive.

It doesn't take skill to shift a 3-pedal gearbox from 2nd to 3rd at 30mph, but it does from 4th to 5th at 120mph! Same damn thing in an SMG car except you need to make surer of what gear you are currently in. You can blip the throttle to power match your speeds all the same. It does take skill. The only thing is you don't have to worry about a miss-shift from 4th to 5th at 120mph and blowing your motor.

Chesty Bonds said:

I have a lot of skill driving a 3-pedal gearboxes and I am a true car enthusiast. I love the changing of the gears as much if not more than the next guy, but the quote above is completely wrong. SMG II and above are REAL manuals. I already responded to the next statement and, "SMG is a total wank and changing gears with 100% accuracy and blinding speed just isn't the bloody point." comment? Well that is exactly the bloody point. Changing gears with 100% accuracy at blinding speeds is exactly the point! Yea, is sure is fun to miss-shift at high speed isn't it. Love the sound of the gears grinding at 110mph! That statement is absurd....

Chesty Bonds · Dec 15, 2004

Well if you grind the gears at 110 mph like you said then perhaps you should stick to the SMG. I know that an SMG is a manual gearbox as opposed to an auto 'box which has a 'manual' option.

And I can modulate the power for smoother shifts in my dad's 740il but that's not very hard. SMG takes nowhere near the amount of skill as a three-pedal-setup. If you honestly think this then obviously you're not going to accept my point but I must say that I personally believe you're totally delusional.

Not missing shifts at high speed really isn't the point either. An SMG will prevent this but, in reality, grinding the gears once every 10,000kms just 'aint gonna bust the 'box. So really that is an illegitimate argument that you make. I'm sorry but pulling a little plastic paddle just doesn't require the same level of skill as a real manual tranny.

///M SPEED · Dec 15, 2004

Where did I state anything about "grinding gears"? I have never grind the gears at speed and no it is not an illegitimate argument. You make it sound like driving a 3-pedal manual gearbox is hard to do, which it is not. I don't have any problems shifting.

P.S. It is a manual gearbox with an "Auto" option....

Average Jae · Dec 15, 2004

let's just say this: it takes less skill to drive an SMG. but in order to drive it well, you still need to think about what you are doing. in an SMG, you just have to blip the throttle a bit before entering the 2nd gear corner, where as in the manual, you have to heel-toe to blip/downshift smoothly before entering the same corner, which does require more skill. and i for one can't hit it correctly every time. (whether have the skill or not, it doesn't matter, it's still more work in the manual.)

i think when chesty means skill, he means just the shifting skills, and not driving skills. if you read the article abdoman mentioned, some rich fool w/ the 360 modena rolled into a fense backwards because he had no real driving skills. his car shifted PERFECTLY, perfectly into the fense BACKWARDS!

modernizing the manual is outdating some important skills that enthuists and professional drivers took years to perfect. once SMG type takes over the racing circuit, next best motoring vid you get won't be showing that lil window at the bottom of feet position.. (or just boring accel, brake only.. no heel toeing.. [:(]

it'll never be the same. but the cars will perform better than ever. check out CSL vid tom posted. see how boring the CSL, the porsche turbo, and the modena's footwell cam is? yea, they finished 4,5 and 6, but it's not due to the SMG, that's for sure.

Wallie05 · Dec 15, 2004

Chesty Bonds said:

Wow, nicely said, Chesty. Yet again, you've taken the words right out of my mouth. I guess it really is true: great minds do think alike. [hihi]

My father and I had a similar discussion last Saturday. We were at Christmas party at the home of our family friends and one of their guests pulled up in a brand new Maserati Spyder GT, but with the F1 gearbox. (No ice or salt on the roads yet, so it was still fine on summer slicks.) My dad and walked around, sat in it, chatted with the guy, and all in all, it is an awesome car. But after we went inside, my dad and I looked at each and shook our heads--sure enough, we were both confused by someone who order such a premium car without the stick-shift. Totally ruined the car, we thought. Where's the fun in it? Anyone who buys a weekend/summer car like that (in Chicago, that is definetly not a year-round, daily driver!!) with an F1 gearbox because of "convenience" is either plain ol' lazy, or incompetent to drive a full manual. The opposite can never be true. [ohcrap]

Oh and don't worry about M_Speed. The guy obviously has a huge complex about the SMG and is ultra-defensive. He'll never admit that the SMG is less of a manual than a 3 pedaler and likes to fool himself into thinking that it takes a skillful driver to drive one. After all, not just anybody can hop into a car a press a button or two. [whip]

I'll admit, it takes someone who knows how to fiddle (juggle?) with the car's computers, but that's about it and it's definetely nothing to brag about. And even if you're not good at that, well then, there's always the auto button. [rolleyes]

Jeremy Clarkson said it best: see below. I wonder if I can find the clip that this is from. I think Tom posted it....

Abdoman · Dec 15, 2004

All but one of my cars have been manual and the reason I purchase them is the "fun factor". I have never driven an SMG, but they seem like they would be a blast to drive, even more fun than a manual.

As for skills on driving a manual, WHO CARES! The SMG gearbox is superior to the manual "stick" transmission.

To many of you live in the past and grasp at what is familiar. Step into the future.

///M SPEED · Dec 15, 2004

Abdoman said:

I see you understand what I am talking about Abdoman. wallie always seems unable to look past the light. Like I have stated; I love the 3-pedal as well as anyone here, but to make statement that it does not take skill to drive an SMG equipped car "at-speed" just because you push/pull a pedal is absurd. You’re a bit closed minded.

P.S. I am as defensive about SMG as you are against it.

Another thing,

Seems to me that you will never admit that the SMG gearboxes were designed to get the most performance out of the car possible, which is far from being “less of a manual than a 3-pedaler”. There is a reason so many top-flight auto manufacturers and race teams are going with it. Get with the times. SMG isn't going away....

flashinthepan · Dec 15, 2004

Default said:

The Automatic hasnt put manuals outta business yet ? and from the SMG style stuff I have driven, well I will just say I dont want SMG at this stage of the game.

MrElussive · Dec 15, 2004

Wallie05, you sure sure preach a lot about the "experience" when you don't even downshift yourself. You said it a long time ago, how all you do is upshift, and then when you have to make a stop, you just put it in neutral and ride your brakes to a stop, just the way auto tranny drivers use their brakes. You should also know that M Speed has way more years of manual transmission driving than you and I do. He simply opted for the SMG transmission on his M3 and he ain't looking back. You can't preach manual and call the SMG "rubbish" if you can't even appreciate what SMG is capable of...

As for everyone who keeps hating on SMG: You guys need to chill out. You're all forgetting one thing about manual transmissions. Cars today are packing WAAAYYYY more power than they were even 5 years ago. Cars are getting so freaking good and are so amazingly capable of high-speed driving, that WE are the ones who can't keep up, NOT THE CARS. The auto industry moves very fast and people don't. For example, the CDV that all new manual cars come with....it's not there to "hinder" you, it's there to preserve the life of the clutch and the transmission because it's not rocket science to perform redline shifts, but to do them perfectly with today's engines (clutching in and out at proper speeds, shifting, rev-matching, etc.) IS, and so they have taken steps on our manual trannies to make sure we don't ruin our cars and so we just enjoy the drive instead of worrying about the timing of our clutch engagements/disengagements. And as for SMG, it undoubtedly brings out maximum performance from the car, and that is just something you have to accept. I love watching really good manual drivers do their thing (like with those Motegi battle guys) and I always try to make myself better at driving manual and I enjoy driving it, but you have to respect what's going on. F1 gearboxes make the cars better and if it makes the cars better, the auto industry is all for it.

Wallie05 · Dec 15, 2004

MrElussive said:

Are you f*cking serious?!?! Who the f*ck are you all of the sudden, Mr. Spurious? How can you make statements like that you dumbf&ck! You better back the f*ck up bitch, because you don't know jack shit about me, about how I drive or how long I've driving!! Keep your generalizations to yourself duchebag. [nono]

I downshift all the time, and I have absolutely know clue what you are basing your claims on you little slanderous slut. Maybe I said, and I have no idea if or when, that while I'll be slowing down, not knowing if the light's gonna change and I'll pop to neutral to see if I can keep in another gear or keep downshifting, to match revs with speed. But you are taking that WAY out of context and to say I'm preaching without downshifting is plain ignorance!!!! F&CK YOU COCKSUCKER!!! [ohcrap]

I don't downshift?? What a f*cking joke. That'd be laughable if it wasn't so pathetic. [screwy]

Oh and M-Speed, I never said anything about shifting "at-speed" or about performance. I'm not a total "numbers" guy and driving feel matters more to me than all-out performance. And I know for a fact that "shifting" SMG-style is not as difficult as with a 3-pedal, and anybody who says it is, is simply delusional.

1) I've driven the SMG on a Z4 when my father was thinking about getting the SMG on his Z4; he drove it, too, neither of us liked it and was relatively easy to use the first time. Hell, the computer wouldn't let us butcher it even if we wanted to. Then there was the granny-mode I'm sure you're so fond of. 2) Also, and it is PRECISELY because it is not that difficult to use that F1/racers use it!! So they don't have to think as much about shifting as actually driving and maneuvering!! This way they can think about how fast they can take the next turn instead of wondering when to depress the clutch.

You and others can talk about max performance and the legitimacy of the transmission being a "full" manual all you like. But at the end of the day, it is no where near as fun as the good ole thee pedal. You do what you have to do to fool yourself at night and in front of your friends. But I would sooner take my friend's 5-speed Civic for a jaunt through the backwoods (grinning ear-to-ear no less) than your SMG M3 any day.....how's about that for closed-mindedness. [scream]

Abdoman · Dec 15, 2004

Can you say "anger management"?

///M SPEED · Dec 15, 2004

Wow, touch a nerve? Get a grip! See you’re talking apples and I am talking oranges. You're talking "fun" while I am talking about the performance issues of the transmission, it's use while driving fast, and that it in fact is a manual gearbox.

You should see a Dr. about all that anger. It's not healthy.... [:(!]

You want everyone else to, “Keep your generalizations to yourself”,

but you have a hard time doing the same:

Take notes; practice what you preach!

P.S. SMG I isn't anything like SMG II. You think you know from a couple of test drives, but in reality you don't know jack. Oh, and have fun in the civic. What a rush it must be jaunting through the backwoods? [rolleyes]

[slap]

Chesty Bonds · Dec 15, 2004

///M SPEED said:

I know what it is.

Why did you think that Max Moseley and Bernie Ecclestone tampered with the idea of bringing back full manuals to F1 racing? Because it's harder than pulling a paddle and when drivers make a mistake with a real manual, well it's the last mistake they make for the whole race. Boom.

Niki Lauda, Alain Prost, Nigel Mansell etc, etc have all, at one point in time, noted how much easier it is for today's F1 drivers to pilot their cars. They acknowledge that driving a real manual 'box requires much more concentration and skill than a paddle shifter. In the '70s and '80s when they were shifting upwards of 2,500 times at a track like Monaco I'd have to say I agree with them. Same rule applies to an SMG equipped car. You can argue 'till you're blue in the face that an SMG is faster and more precise (which it certainly is, I agree with that) but the sheer nubers mean nothing about real driving skill and enjoyment and that's why the traditional manual 'box will always shit on an SMG.

Chesty Bonds · Dec 15, 2004

MrElussive said:

Elussive I can totally understand what you're arguing and I can sympathise with where you're coming from but I just think there is a lack of understanding here about the skill associated with a manual tanny. I know that an SMG is quicker and more precise but I'm arguing that this is not the point in a car such as the CSL, M6, or M5. Generally, people who drive these cars are enthusiasts and taking away the stick removes some of the driving involvement. What really gives me the shits is that there isn't at least a choice between SMG and manual in these cars.

You're right that cars are much more powerful today than they were 5-10 years ago but I don't see how this would prevent the continual production of manual 'boxes. Sure, an M3 SMG's clutch is proven to last longer than it's manual bretheren but so what? The Macca F1 has a manual 'box too and that had 627BHP.

The CDV issue seems slightly out of context too. It's used to protect the clutch etc at low speeds but at higher engine revs it can actually decrease the lifespan of the clutch because it feeds it in too slowly causing an excessive amount of slippage and wear. There is a reason why the M3 does without the CDV and it's much more powerful than the 330i so I don't think your analogy is quite right there.

Finally, I do accept that SMG gets more performance from the car and I never argued otherwise. I'm just noting that it's just so much easier to pilot an SMG car than it is a manual and get consistently quick times. Therein lies the attraction of a manual 'box: it's a challenge to get it just right time and time again.

I'm not having a go at anyone but I just think this whole SMG thing is a hindrance for people like me who enjoy the real art of driving: controlling steering, brakes, clutch, accelerator all at once. If BMW offered their high performance cars with the choice of a manual 'box then I wouldn't be complaining and we'd all be happy but their recent trend has been to take more and more involvement away from the driver. Of this there can be no doubt!

Average Jae · Dec 16, 2004

i really like how this thread keeps on growing, even w/ shouting matches and all. more the fun when the children jump in a run a muck.

first off, Scott. (M speed) you are right about the SMG being a manual w/ an auto. the creater now wishes they never offered the feature, since it's getting so much heat in American enthuists. and he wonders why Americans are still favoring the manual over the "superior" SMG tranny. (m5 article in Roundel where M stands for mother of..)

Pete, (chesty) i assume, you hate the SMG in the F1 circuit, and i recently started thinking the same. i think it makes it a less of a sport because shifting is one of the key skills in racing imo. w/ paddle shifting, it is more of a video game. yes it is a great tech, but it reshaped the sport so much, and not for the better imo, since at the end of the day, most skilled team. driving, pit crew etc should win. i guess the SMG evens the field out a bit more, but i dont' follow the sport enough or know about it enough to argue for or against it. (just my observation on SMG's impact)

Mark (wallie) i mentioned this to you before and i'll say it again. your experience in the Z4's SMG I is a skewed one, because the one in the M3 is a way better iteration of the technology. and the one in M5, the SMG iii is better still. almost everything i've read about the SMG i is on the negative side, slow, non responsive etc. so while you still can base your judgement on the SMG on your experience, do keep that in mind when bashing other iterations.

Emile, (Mr. E) i don't agree with you on CDV being all that great an invention, but i don't know too much about it to even have an intelligent discussion w/ you, so i'll leave that btw you and Pete.

Fun is different for everyone. pushing one's version to others and being disappointed because the other person doesn't appreciate it, is being a snob. Yes, my take on the RX-8 driver was that of a snob too, altho some what less of one, since he did drop his money on lesser counter part by opting the auto w/ 40 less horses. esp on a high perf ride w/ the heritage. I'm sure when the owners of these vehicles dropped their money on it, much research and driving experience went into thought, and got what they figured was the best. I hate traffic being an excuse for not getting a manual. but I have never been stuck in traffic as bad as LA, so while i can't go BOOOOOO for it, it's only a light hearted joke at best. one needs to grow up and respect others decisions, esp when they spent a lot of money for getting it that way. no matter how stupid or however you feel about it. unless they asked you directly. maybe they regret it already, no need to rub it in either.. since most of us seem to be old enough, how about stop acting like kids!

i dream of getting a euro delivery of an M5 when i get rich. but i'm already wondering whether to get it in manual or the SMG. i already know i'm not going to be able to push the car 100% w/ my driving skills, in manual or SMG. because i'm not a freakin racing driver! and the m5 i get isn't gonna be some status symbol BS you see floating all over the place in SF! of course the manual would provide more challenge and fun and it is welcome. there is fun in rowing it myself, but if i can't heel toe perfectly on a turn, (which will happen from time to time.) i might miss out on more fun in the corner. also i figure by the time i could afford such a ride, i would be married, so my wife should drive it too (am i delusional here?) and on occasion my friends too. if they don't know how to drive one, i sure as hell ain't gonna teach em on that ride! i also play a lot a ball, and prolly will for forseeable future, and i sprain my ankle often. it's a bitch trying to drive a 3 pedal w/ one o those. so even in that small decision that may never come to fruition, there is still much to think about. and if used as a daily driver, i just may, just may get sick of driving a manaul day in and day out.. who knows? see how much thought could go into just picking a tranny? and I love manuals! hate little poser kids w/ their manumatics, etc. but when faced w/ dropping $75k+ or so for a ride will make you think at least twice about the purchase. even years before. oh yea, i'm a sucker for cool gadgets too.. which is what SMG is, a damn freakin cool gadget for your car.

Chesty Bonds · Dec 16, 2004

Wallie05 said:

Damn straight! [hihi]

Chesty Bonds · Dec 16, 2004

Jason, your diplomatic tone is an absolute breath of fresh air in this thread. I think that we generally have legitimate reasons for sustaining our arguments but we do have serious differences over the tactile involvement issues between SMG and manual. Is there anything more I can say? I think you all know where I stand and I sure as shit know where everyone else stands. I guess we will have to agree to disagree no?

I do like the discussion though. It's quite technical and involving...LIKE A MANUAL 'BOX! [hihi]

Abdoman · Dec 16, 2004

Not to change the subject, but the review of the M5 in Automobile Magazine did not list a manual (stick) transmission as an option, only SMG. Anyone know more?

flashinthepan · Dec 16, 2004

This is an old and tiring argument that boils down to

PERSONAL opinion.

To each there own really, who cares ??, buy what you like [bmwdance]

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