Do you think manual transmissions will ever become obsolete?
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you absolutely cannot understand how and manual trasmission works if you think this. if your gears do not match the speed of your drive shaft, any kind of shifting will put wear on your syncros. Every time you shift you put wear on the syncros unless you do it perfectly.
Double clutching works like this: There are three different components of the 'drive train' that need to be matched in order to achieve zero (or close to)wear. Before you go to down shift, all three speeds are the same. When you first engage the clutch and let go of the gas, your engine speed starts to decrease. The transmission internals and anything after the transmission i'll call wheels speed are matched. Once you take the transmission out of gear. The gears start to slow down while the wheels are still moving fast. When you go to put it in a bigger gear (downshift) you must disengage the clutch while in neutral so the engine is connected to the gears but not the wheels. Then you rev speeding up the gears to match the new gear's speed to the wheels, quickly disconnect the engine, (engage clutch) and put it in gear. At this time the gears and the wheels are conencted and doing the same speed. Then you can rev match the engine to the transmission and be on your way, disengage the clutch.
At any point in time you select a gear without matching the gears' speeds to the wheels' speeds, this is when the syncros do it for you. Thus causing wear to the syncro, just as unmatch engine speeds wear on a clutch.
not sure if i explained that well enought to understand but i hope it helps.
so by what you just told me: "i don't double clutch" and go on to say you hit 'perfect shifts' (after what I said a 'perfect shift' entailed) every time.....
Double clutching works like this: There are three different components of the 'drive train' that need to be matched in order to achieve zero (or close to)wear. Before you go to down shift, all three speeds are the same. When you first engage the clutch and let go of the gas, your engine speed starts to decrease. The transmission internals and anything after the transmission i'll call wheels speed are matched. Once you take the transmission out of gear. The gears start to slow down while the wheels are still moving fast. When you go to put it in a bigger gear (downshift) you must disengage the clutch while in neutral so the engine is connected to the gears but not the wheels. Then you rev speeding up the gears to match the new gear's speed to the wheels, quickly disconnect the engine, (engage clutch) and put it in gear. At this time the gears and the wheels are conencted and doing the same speed. Then you can rev match the engine to the transmission and be on your way, disengage the clutch.
At any point in time you select a gear without matching the gears' speeds to the wheels' speeds, this is when the syncros do it for you. Thus causing wear to the syncro, just as unmatch engine speeds wear on a clutch.
not sure if i explained that well enought to understand but i hope it helps.
so by what you just told me: "i don't double clutch" and go on to say you hit 'perfect shifts' (after what I said a 'perfect shift' entailed) every time.....
while that does tell you better shifts than others, there is not way to tell if the syncros where not used at all. Good syncros can mask the worst shifts.
by the way to all that downshift at lights and stop signs or whatever (chesty and ellusive).... sweet! I'm not saying don't do it... syncros are there for this and clutches last a long time. It is fun no doubt, and if you bought a manual and love shifting and all that (i do too) I was just trying to point out that if you want to spend less money, or want the car to last longer something to keep in mind. Just like peeling out wears out tires faster.... not necessary or monetarily wise but fuuuun!!!
by the way to all that downshift at lights and stop signs or whatever (chesty and ellusive).... sweet! I'm not saying don't do it... syncros are there for this and clutches last a long time. It is fun no doubt, and if you bought a manual and love shifting and all that (i do too) I was just trying to point out that if you want to spend less money, or want the car to last longer something to keep in mind. Just like peeling out wears out tires faster.... not necessary or monetarily wise but fuuuun!!!
mjbst111, what if you do pretty much exactly what you said, except that you don't match the engine speed to the gear speed, but RATHER overmatch (meaning rev the engine a little higher and when the engine / tranny meet it pulls the engine speed down? Is that bad for the synchros? THat's pretty much how I do it. Although fairly often I'll match it pretty damn close.
How bad is that for the tranny?
How bad is that for the tranny?
no that just puts a little extra wear on the clutch. No effect to the tranny.
The synros are only involved when you select a gear. (from neutral to a gear) The syncro only speed up/slows down the internals of the transmission to match that of the wheels speed when you go to select a gear. Once selected the gears and the wheels are connected doing the same speed and then you connect the engine to these by using the clutch.
When double clutching you rev up the engine in neutral and clutch out (depressed). This speeds up the tranny internals becasue the engine is connected to the gears via the clutch but gears not connected to wheels. then you push clutch back in and shift into a gear when you 'think' the revs are matched. with those now connected, you rev again to when you 'think' the engine matches the gears/wheels and let go of the clutch.
The synros are only involved when you select a gear. (from neutral to a gear) The syncro only speed up/slows down the internals of the transmission to match that of the wheels speed when you go to select a gear. Once selected the gears and the wheels are connected doing the same speed and then you connect the engine to these by using the clutch.
When double clutching you rev up the engine in neutral and clutch out (depressed). This speeds up the tranny internals becasue the engine is connected to the gears via the clutch but gears not connected to wheels. then you push clutch back in and shift into a gear when you 'think' the revs are matched. with those now connected, you rev again to when you 'think' the engine matches the gears/wheels and let go of the clutch.
Dude, it's not rocket science and transmissions aren't made of glass. There is double-clutching and not double-clutching, for downshifting. When you "rev-match" on a downshift, that means you push the clutch pedal in and shift to the lower gear and blip the throttle, and then let the clutch pedal out (re-engaging the clutch). Double-clutching is when you push the clutch-pedal in, shift to neutral, let the clutch pedal out, blip the throttle, push the clutch pedal in and shift to the lower gear, then let the clutch pedal out.
Now as I said before, double-clutching is a thing of the past for new cars. Not double-clutching on a downshift doesn't do shit to your synchros. If a downshift is potentially BAD for your synchros, the car will NOT let you do it!! For example, my car's first gear ends at 35mph. But if I'm going faster than 10mph and I try to push the clutch in and shift to first gear, I will just NOT be able to push the shift knob into the 1st gear gate! If you think that not double-clutching on downshifts, causes any noticeably wear on the transmission, that's just not true. I do not double-clutch when I downshift, but I do rev-match. You can even downshift without rev-matching without causing any wear to the synchros and this process is like this: you basically push the clutch pedal in, downshift to the lower gear, and slowly let the clutch pedal out. A lot of manual drivers like to do this and even this method causes almost no wear on the clutch and the transmission itself (again on new cars).
When I say I hit "perfect shifts" most of the time, that means when I blip the throttle to rev-match, I don't blip overly hard or overly soft (so that the engine rpm's don't jump higher than they should or lower than they should, I am almost always RIGHT on target with this). If you think that a "perfect shift" means double-clutching, then feel free to think that, but the guys in those Japanese racing videos (Motegi battle) sure aren't double-clutching and neither am I....
Now as I said before, double-clutching is a thing of the past for new cars. Not double-clutching on a downshift doesn't do shit to your synchros. If a downshift is potentially BAD for your synchros, the car will NOT let you do it!! For example, my car's first gear ends at 35mph. But if I'm going faster than 10mph and I try to push the clutch in and shift to first gear, I will just NOT be able to push the shift knob into the 1st gear gate! If you think that not double-clutching on downshifts, causes any noticeably wear on the transmission, that's just not true. I do not double-clutch when I downshift, but I do rev-match. You can even downshift without rev-matching without causing any wear to the synchros and this process is like this: you basically push the clutch pedal in, downshift to the lower gear, and slowly let the clutch pedal out. A lot of manual drivers like to do this and even this method causes almost no wear on the clutch and the transmission itself (again on new cars).
When I say I hit "perfect shifts" most of the time, that means when I blip the throttle to rev-match, I don't blip overly hard or overly soft (so that the engine rpm's don't jump higher than they should or lower than they should, I am almost always RIGHT on target with this). If you think that a "perfect shift" means double-clutching, then feel free to think that, but the guys in those Japanese racing videos (Motegi battle) sure aren't double-clutching and neither am I....
I have nothing against you but COME ON! read my posts...
If you seriously still think this then you are simply uneducated and don't know how a transmission works (and unwilling to read my posts to learn). Shifting from first to second will put wear on a syncro. Any time you shift it puts wear on your syncro. How can you not understand this??????? Do you know what a syncro does? A synro is like a clutch.... anytime it is used, its gets a little more worn. Everytime you shift, IT IS USED!!! (unless you match everything perfectly as i said earlier).
seriously i'm not saying don't shift, don't use your syncros, don't donwshift, so quit being a hard ace and say the "oh the Japanese don't do that sheet." I'm not saying you have to!!!! if you can get the dang thing in gear using the syncros then do it!!! Thats is what they are there for. They were designed to wear. I never said otherwise. I simply said the more you shift the more your syncros will wear. and even more so when you downshift. So if you walk the shifting back down everytime you go to stop.... guess what your syncros will wear twice as fast. And when you have a car with 200000 on it, it becomes a concern.
Do what you want to do, you obviously won't hear anything otherwise. I simply don't care if you have to change your tranny some day.... but honestly you probably don't give a rats ace as well because daddy will probably buy you a new one before that happens anyway. (which is wonderful for you!)
I am looking forward to how you will twist my words into something i didn't say or when you will again argue something that isn't true.
If you seriously still think this then you are simply uneducated and don't know how a transmission works (and unwilling to read my posts to learn). Shifting from first to second will put wear on a syncro. Any time you shift it puts wear on your syncro. How can you not understand this??????? Do you know what a syncro does? A synro is like a clutch.... anytime it is used, its gets a little more worn. Everytime you shift, IT IS USED!!! (unless you match everything perfectly as i said earlier).
seriously i'm not saying don't shift, don't use your syncros, don't donwshift, so quit being a hard ace and say the "oh the Japanese don't do that sheet." I'm not saying you have to!!!! if you can get the dang thing in gear using the syncros then do it!!! Thats is what they are there for. They were designed to wear. I never said otherwise. I simply said the more you shift the more your syncros will wear. and even more so when you downshift. So if you walk the shifting back down everytime you go to stop.... guess what your syncros will wear twice as fast. And when you have a car with 200000 on it, it becomes a concern.
Do what you want to do, you obviously won't hear anything otherwise. I simply don't care if you have to change your tranny some day.... but honestly you probably don't give a rats ace as well because daddy will probably buy you a new one before that happens anyway. (which is wonderful for you!)
I am looking forward to how you will twist my words into something i didn't say or when you will again argue something that isn't true.
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The point that I am clearly missing is - WHY is everyone making such a deal over synchro wear? So what's the big deal about 200,000 miles of wear on synchros? ![[scratch]](/images/smilies/icon_smile_headscratch.gif "Head Scratch [scratch]")
- Every time I open my door, I put a little wear on the hinge.
- Everytime I start the engine I put a little wear on the starter and battery.
- Everytime I slide my ass in the seat, I wear the leather.
- Everytime I brake, I wear the rotors and disks.
Being concerned about wear on the synchros as a reason to avoid downshifts is silly. Just because you use something twice as much DOESN'T mean it will wear twice as fast. There's nothing that says synchros won't last for 500,000 miles or more - in many vehicles they do, or could if the rest of the car still works.
- Every time I open my door, I put a little wear on the hinge.
- Everytime I start the engine I put a little wear on the starter and battery.
- Everytime I slide my ass in the seat, I wear the leather.
- Everytime I brake, I wear the rotors and disks.
Being concerned about wear on the synchros as a reason to avoid downshifts is silly. Just because you use something twice as much DOESN'T mean it will wear twice as fast. There's nothing that says synchros won't last for 500,000 miles or more - in many vehicles they do, or could if the rest of the car still works.
I understand what you are trying to say, but this car at 200,000 miles will be FAR from my problem. I know that the synchros wear whenever you are shifting (because that's what they're there for) but you talk about the wear and tear of them as if they are gonna die in 30,000 miles or something. I have faith that the synchros and the rest of the transmission (excluding the clutch) will last for the life of the car.
Keep in mind a couple of things:
1.) The average new car nowadays only has a "valued" life of 6 years/100,000 miles.
2.) My car is leased for 3 years/36,000 miles so any serious wear-and-tear from my car will not happen during my lease!
3.) Whatever style of driving I unleash on my car, as long as my car ain't complaining, neither am I.
Keep in mind a couple of things:
1.) The average new car nowadays only has a "valued" life of 6 years/100,000 miles.
2.) My car is leased for 3 years/36,000 miles so any serious wear-and-tear from my car will not happen during my lease!
3.) Whatever style of driving I unleash on my car, as long as my car ain't complaining, neither am I.
Based on your scenario.... yup, i would drive it like its stolen.
I definitely understand your situation.... i just wanted to point it out to people who have an ace old car that can't buy another anytime soon like me. Last thing i want to do is replace my tranny. I'm about to hit 200,000, when i bought it at 155,000 my second gear syncro (really common on the e30s) was already showing signs of wear. Had to put in redline to correct not being able to get it in gear in the winter.
I definitely understand your situation.... i just wanted to point it out to people who have an ace old car that can't buy another anytime soon like me. Last thing i want to do is replace my tranny. I'm about to hit 200,000, when i bought it at 155,000 my second gear syncro (really common on the e30s) was already showing signs of wear. Had to put in redline to correct not being able to get it in gear in the winter.
He did miss it, I'm not talking about what is faster here. Yes it's fun and it's more control even if it doesn't help to drive faster than SMG. Driving a manual is driving in a nutshell, it is as direct as it gets. Try to start up engine in a car with SMG when your starter died or try to go directly from 1st to 3rd with SMG - you can do it only with manual and that's my point. Manual gives you more control over the car, period.